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Post by The Candyman on Aug 17, 2005 15:11:26 GMT -5
Actually, there is some evidence to suggest homosexuality is genetic - at this point, however, it's not entirely certain. Whether or not it's genetic or choice doesn't matter - I addressed both issues in my last really long post.
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edu
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Post by edu on Aug 17, 2005 21:26:40 GMT -5
Whatever evidence there may be concerning the biological stemming from homosexuality is not only insufficient, but it's also vague. Scientists can't really present any proven facts or evidence that clearly attributes homosexuality to a biological or genetic condition. Any "evidence" that may be presented results not from an unbiased, systematic, scientific research or experimentation but rather just tries to "fill" any support for justifying a homosexual lifestyle, exempting homosexuals from guilt.
You're right in one aspect, though. The United States government is not God and does not hold God's views on every social or moral aspect of its people. Yes the constitution begins with "We the people" but the oath includes " a nation under God". Its forefathers all claimed to practice the Christian faith. The Constitution may explicitly allow all kinds of religions and morality to be practiced, but let's be serious: society has always upheld common moral values. The consitution has existed ever since it was written in the eighteenth century, but society suffered continual changes within the last centuries. Its moral values have not been improved, rather they have degraded to this: legalization of gay marriage.
Abortion is another social issue that relates to homosexuality. I'm not going to digress into a different subject, but this brief explanation will help me make my point. What happens during the process of abortion? The baby is clinically killed (yes, KILLED) and removed from the mother's womb, and what's worse, with her consent. Why does the government allow this? Because it claims that a woman has right to her own body and she can do whatever she pleases with it. Well, there is only one problem: the baby is NOT her body, it is a different being. How does this relate to homosexual marriage? It's not so much that the practicants of homosexuality harm themselves (transmission of AIDS) that's actually their problem, part of the consequences from their own decisions. But what happens when a homosexual couple decides to adopt a child? Now they are perverting the mind of another person, and it's very very likely that they inflict sexual abuse upon him/her. The child will grow up, and, given his/her environment, will probably choose a homosexual lifestyle. In other words, the cycle will repeat itself once more. Eventually, this dangerous cycle can seriously jeopardize the stability of societal structure because it shakes its most basic foundation: marriage.
In my country (Honduras) homosexual marriages have not been legalized, but poverty and alcoholism tears hundreds of families apart. What's the result? An unbelievable rise in crime and corruption. It's horrible. I shudder when i think of the social damage that homosexual marriages can provoke.
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Post by The Candyman on Aug 17, 2005 21:37:15 GMT -5
The USA may be a "nation under God", but I've always taken God in that phrase to refer to all gods of all religions. And keep in mind there are lots of people who want that phrase removed from the pledge of allegiance.
You and I may think the actual act of homosexual marriage shows a decay of moral values, but many think it's an improvement. Whether or not it's for society's good doesn't matter: the government serves the people, and if the people want gay marriage legalized, the government needs to comply. The people are in control. In a way I'm reminded of Christ's trial before Pilate - he could find no reason to crucify Him, and yet, in the end, was forced to do the people's will.
Also: don't bring abortion into this, please. I don't want to get off topic, though that discussion would definitely be interesting. Perhaps you should start a separate thread for it.
And don't assume a child that grows up with homosexual parents is more likely to be abused than a child who grows up with heterosexual parents. I've actually heard that homosexual families are more stable, but hey, who knows. The bottom line is that the government doesn't have the right to deny a group of people rights if there's a ton of people saying they should have those rights. The US government's job is to listen to the people. Without the people it cannot function.
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Post by tman1091 on Aug 20, 2005 17:47:57 GMT -5
ok i didnt read half of this cus well by the time i would be done reading it i would be 50 and thats no joke i like the island idea y'all got to invite me over and all i got to say about the gay marige thing is that its gay so yeah bye
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K
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Post by K on Aug 21, 2005 18:35:48 GMT -5
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(Romans:1:18-27)
You can argue as much you as you want. But you can't argue with God. We know He is the TRUTH and there are no other gods. God loves homosexuals, but hates homosexuality.
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Post by The Candyman on Aug 21, 2005 20:06:43 GMT -5
Yeah. It's just too bad that isn't anywhere in the Constitution.
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Post by hibiscus on Aug 21, 2005 22:01:04 GMT -5
Laws come from 1 of 2 purposes. 1 - outlaw things that are harmful to society as a whole and those things that are objectionable to the culture. Ex - murder is harmful. Ex. - multiple spouses is objectional in western society (not in many African societies). 2 - allow things that benefit the society. Ex - "Quotas" or "Affirmative Action" has generally been upheld by law under the premise that society benefits by giving minorities a chance to advance that they might otherwise be denied by virtue of societal disadvantages.
It seems to me that marriage falls under a legal status that overall benefits the society as a whole. But I can't think of any way that society benefits from homosexual marriage. So I can't think of any reason it should be legalized.
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Post by The Candyman on Aug 21, 2005 22:24:28 GMT -5
How would society not benefit from homosexual marriage, other than morally in some people's opinion? Society as a whole may not benefit, but the homosexuals would, and that's more than can be said for what happens by denying them that right.
It used to be thought that a child being raised by a homosexual couple would be more likely to be abused or become homosexual him/herself. That's actually not the case. Research has shown that children raised by homosexuals have the same chance of being heterosexual/homosexual as children raised by heterosexual parents. Psychologically and emotionally they develop the same. People argue that legalizing gay marriage will result in more homosexual couples having children - but scientifically speaking that's neither better or worse than heterosexual families.
Homosexual couples already have most of the same rights married heterosexuals have, in many states. For example, the right to visit a dying partner in the hospital, take sick leave to care for a partner, health insurance, the right to adopt a partner's child, etc. Homosexuals are generally being treated almost exactly the same as heterosexual couples - I see no reason not to go the whole nine yards and just say, "Okay, we legally consider you 'married.'" If you're going to treat a couple like they're married, why not say they're married?
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Awaceman
New Member
The MUGEN King
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Post by Awaceman on Aug 27, 2005 19:57:15 GMT -5
Sorry if you read any of the unmodified versions. (If, in fact, they could be read.) I typed something that had a few errors in it, and when I went back to try and change it, something messed up my browser and typed: ">>>" instead. (Stupid Internet Explorer... ;D Get Firefox it's better! ;D ) Anyways, I really need for you to back up what you've been claiming here: "I've actually heard that homosexual families are more stable, but hey, who knows," and here, "Research has shown that children raised by homosexuals have the same chance of being heterosexual/homosexual as children raised by heterosexual parents." I mean, what is this "research," and what is it that you have "heard?" None of us here are academically challenged; accordingly, you should show us your findings. For as you know, one of the main objectives of forming a hypothesis--about anything--is giving other researchers (meaning: us) the chance to go over the data to prove its validity. And don't go telling us to "look it up" because you can copy and paste just as much as the rest of us. On the other hand, if you don't like to copy and paste... you can give us a link. Consequently, if you tell us to go "look it up" then we may read the wrong article and get mixed ideas. I know it has been a long time since I've posted, but this is all I've got time to say at the moment. Finally, I vote for the starting of a thread to discuss the possibilities of homosexuality being genetic. Currently getting back to writing my English paper, Awaceman
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Post by The Candyman on Aug 28, 2005 13:32:16 GMT -5
Honestly, I was surprised at that information when I first read it. However, I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that it's false. I firstly found that information in my sociology textbook. Here is the direct quote: "During custory cases, the courts often are concerned with several issues surrounding the social and psychological development of children being raised by gay or lesbian parents. These include concerns that the parents' homosexuality will adversely affect the child's gender and emotional development, that social stigma or peer rejection will result due to parental homosexuality, and that there is an increased likelihood of the child becoming homosexual (B. Fitzgerald, 1999). However, the studies that have been conducted on children who grow up in gay and lesbian families show that they develop in a positive manner psychologically, intellectually, behaviorally, and emotionally. They have no greater incidence of homosexuality than do children who grow up in a heterosexual family, and the presence of a heterosexual parents of each gender is not crucial to healthy child development (see B. Fitzgerald, 1999, for a review of the literature). Because of the amount of research showing that the children of gay and lesbian parents develop as normally as children in other families, the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2002 called for state laws to allow for gays and lesbians to adopt their partner's children...The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry has similar views on adoption rights for gay and lesbian parents." Personally, I don't think they'd print something in a college textbook unless there was a grain of truth to it. The second instance of when I came into contact with this information was a few nights ago when I was watching Bill Maher's show on HBO. He had three guests: a gay man, a femenist playwright, what seemed to be to me a conservative senator or governor. The issue of gay rights came up, and the conservative guy said he was against them. Maher brought up the point that children raised with homosexual parents are just a normal socially and psychologically as children raised by heterosexual parents. The conservative guy acknowledged this as true. Now, it seems to me, that if you have a guy who's against gay marriage acknowledging that children with homosexual parents aren't harmed psychologically or socially, it's gotta be true. If it wasn't, the conservative would have said it wasn't. But he didn't. There is some evidence to suggest that children are different based on whether or not they're raised by homosexuals. However, the differences seem to balance out. Take a look at this article: www.townhall.com/columnists/monacharen/mc20040521.shtml. This is what I find interesting: "First, not surprisingly, both boys and girls raised by homosexuals are far more likely to tell researchers that they have experimented with or considered homosexuality themselves. This is no shock. The research further shows that daughters raised by lesbians tend to have a larger number of sexual partners from puberty to adulthood than children in ordinary homes. It also, quite interestingly, shows that boys raised by lesbians have fewer sexual encounters than boys raised by heterosexual parents. As Biblarz and Stacey observe, the majority of children raised in gay families turn out to be heterosexual in adulthood (bearing in mind the limitations of the research)." So, basically, if children are raised by homosexuals they will be more accepting of the homosexual lifestyle - duh, that was to be expected. The question is whether or not they will be harmed socially and psychologically, not whether they'd end up supporting homosexuality or not. Also, the levels of sexual promiscuity balance out. Girls raised by lesbians are more sexually active than girls raised by heterosexuals, and guys raised by lesbians are less sexually active than guys raised by heterosexuals. And please notice what I emphasized in italics. The idea that children raised by homosexuals will turn out to be homosexual just isn't true. Furthermore, take a look at this group of facts: www.colage.org/research/facts.html. Not only does it imply children of gay and lesbian couples are just as normally developed as children of heterosexual parents, it also implies that in many cases they are better developed. The majority of conflict in gay/lesbian families comes not from the parents' sexual orientation, but because of the homophobia the child may experience. A whole lot of research hasn't been done comparing children raised by homosexual parents with those raised by heterosexual parents. However, the studies that have been done indicate that children raised by homosexuals develop more or less as normally as those raised by heterosexual parents. The main differences are in terms of sexual activity, which balances out according to the gender of the child, and the fact that more conflict comes from outside the family (homophobia, gay parents' conflict with previous heterosexual partners, etc.) rather than inside. Like it or not, that's what the research is pointing to.
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Post by hibiscus on Aug 30, 2005 11:28:20 GMT -5
Problem with most of the studies done is that the studies are done by groups who have an agenda, whether pro or con. For instance, the colage site you suggested is a site for children raised by homosexuals, not exactly an unbiased group! Got any studies by people who aren't using them to prove their point?
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Post by The Candyman on Aug 30, 2005 17:17:37 GMT -5
Note: if any of these links are broken, you may have to copy/paste the URL into your browser. www.townhall.com/columnists/monacharen/mc20040521.shtml - the one mentioned in my previous post www.religioustolerance.org/hom_pare5.htmprint.family.findlaw.com/adoption/same-sex-adoption/same-sex-parent-issues.htmlwww.echeat.com/essay.php?t=26436 - an essay written by a lesbian, so it's clearly biased, but brings up some good points that are more related to common sense rather than actual research - such as the idea the idea that children of homosexuals are loved and wanted more than those of heterosexuals since there aren't many "accidental" pregnancies. At the moment, not enough research has been done into the matter to determine how accurate the statistics are. Also, you're right, lots of times the studies are biased. However, I don't think we should automatically assume that a child raised by homosexual parents will turn out "worse" psychologically or socially than one raised by heterosexual parents. After all, heterosexual relationships these days are just as bad from a Judeo-Christian perspective. There are more single mothers than ever, not to mention the high levels of divorce and abuse with heterosexual couples. Being homosexual doesn't mean your family life is going to be bad any more than being heterosexual means it will be good. As Bill Maher put it: "Just look at the reality shows these days about the Osbournes and Whitney Houston. I'd rather be raised by Rosie O'Donnell than Bobby Brown."
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Post by hibiscus on Aug 30, 2005 19:56:35 GMT -5
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Post by The Candyman on Sept 1, 2005 17:00:29 GMT -5
Here's what the American Psychological Association officially has to say about homosexuality: www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.htmlInteresting quotes: "Sexual orientation exists along a continuum that ranges from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality and includes various forms of bisexuality." In other words, nobody is 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual. "...human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed." It is not a conscious choice to be gay, anymore than a heterosexual consciously chooses to be heterosexual. It just sorta happens according to your environment and the experiences you're exposed to growing up. "Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective which condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented. For example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported overtime as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention." Don't count on the idea that homosexuals can "change" through therapy into heterosexuals. "Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems." In other words, homosexuals are "normal" in every sense of the word. The only question arises in terms of morality. "Studies comparing groups of children raised by homosexual and by heterosexual parents find no developmental differences between the two groups of children in four critical areas: their intelligence, psychological adjustment, social adjustment, and popularity with friends. It is also important to realize that a parent's sexual orientation does not dictate his or her children's." For those of you who still doubt the truth of these statements: this is the APA talking. Not some biased liberal or conservative. This is the lead authority on the facts behind psychological/social issues such as homosexuality. Also, after further research I have concluded that homosexuality is not genetic. There is no proof that a "gay gene" exists. Experiments have been performed to see if homosexuality can be passed genetically. It can't. Neither can heterosexuality. A person's sexual orientation is determined not by their genes or by a conscious choice, but by the environment in which they are raised, as well as their own individual personalities and hormones.
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souwa
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Post by souwa on Sept 23, 2005 10:43:02 GMT -5
I have been thinking about all this. I haven't read the past posts for a while... but i cant keep my opinion inside after reflecting upon it (and discussing it with my beloved bro in Christ, Zee ). I cannot hold two opinions. I did claim that i supported it legally but not morally. Personally, I can't accept it, as I said earlier on. I realise that I cannot support it on one side and go against it on the other. Legal issues cannot be separated from social, moral, etc. I'm not saying they are all the same thing. But one legal decision expresses its consequences in more than one aspect of society: social, moral, etc. Therefore, I just wanted to clarify that I am against gay marriage completely... not only from a moral point of view. But from all views, as a person, a Christian... as my own personal opinion. By the way, you are not the Government, nor America. You have the right to have an opinion based on your personal beliefs, on your own priorities (ie: faith). That's what the term "people" means... individuals who hold personal opinions, from which the Government can determine who the majority is to make decisions.
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Post by andrew on Nov 10, 2005 13:09:17 GMT -5
Cam and edu, im gonna agree with yall right now.
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Post by The Candyman on Nov 10, 2005 17:33:13 GMT -5
Any particular reason why?
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Post by andrew on Nov 11, 2005 15:07:39 GMT -5
Why what?
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Post by The Candyman on Nov 11, 2005 15:34:46 GMT -5
Why you agree with them. Why you think gay marriage is wrong.
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K
New Member
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Post by K on Apr 24, 2006 17:27:30 GMT -5
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Leviticus:22:18)
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus:20:13)
I don't care what the US goverment thinks. I don't care about what people want to do to satisfy their selfish lust. The Lord said He hates homosexuality and consider it an abomination. Not only for the jews, but for everyone!
So it is, we are nearing the times of Noah. And Sodom.
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